Talk:Words and Names from Other Mouths

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Latin names[edit]

Are the pronunciations of Latin names such as Jupiter meant to be based on the classical Latin pronunciations? Or are they based on the traditional English pronunciation of Latin (without the French influence in some places)? --AtterCleanser44 (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh hello! Terribly sorry for the delay!
Anyway, I was planning on having the main pronunciations having the Classical pronunciations (like Wictory from Victōria), with MIE being listed in the notes if it's different enough (with Victory/Fictory). I do wanna clarify that everything on this page is modern borrowings, straight from their languages of origin to modern English, through an Anglish scope.
One thing I'm curious that you did is why did you make it so everything takes from the Nominative case instead of Accusative? Using the Accusative casing feels more natural to me, plus that how all the Romance languages did it too (like Cicerone from Cicerōnem). Not tryin' to berate you or anything, just curious. --CarlmanZ (talk) 07:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Using the accusative instead of the nominative was a natural development for the Romance languages, but obviously, English and the other Germanic languages were not using Latin words and all their case forms and did not undergo the same sound changes as the Romance languages. And the current English practice is that whenever we borrow a word straight from Latin, it's generally from the nominative and not any other case form, e.g., cactus (not cactum), Caesar (not Caesarem). There are a few exceptions such as folio (from the ablative of folium, and even then, we've borrowed folium as well) and Jove (from the oblique cases of Iūpiter, but obviously, Jupiter is the form generally used). But generally, borrowings from Latin are from the nominative case. --AtterCleanser44 (talk) 17:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying.
I personally prefer taking from the accusative forms, not just æsthetically, but also because it fits better to me? Like lets take cactus for example. You can tell it's right from Latin because it ends in -us. If you make it cactum instead, it's a bit more ambiguous. If you take away the ending entirely (which is the standard on this page), you end up with cact; that's a bit awkward to say, so let's add a letter or two to make cacket. That fits better into the mouth of our, I'd say.
I don't really have a good reason to have accusative be the form to take away from on this page instead of nominative, aside from "it's my page and i'd like it like that", but that doesn't really hold up much. --CarlmanZ (talk) 06:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
By the way, I've been thinking that we should give two pronunciations for names from Latin. One pronunciation would be from the classical Latin pronunciation, and the other would be from a "traditional" Anglish pronunciation of Latin (the traditional English pronunciation of Latin but with the French influence removed). Unlike other speeches, Latin is no longer regularly spoken and now functions mainly as a written speech, which explains why languages have different Latin pronunciations, i.e., they read Latin as they would read their own language. I see no reason to believe that Anglish would not have developed its own traditional pronunciation for Latin, since scholars would still try to read Latin even without the Norman Conquest.
For example, for the name Cicero (< Latin Cicerō), the classical pronunciation would be /ˈkɪkɛɹoʊ/, but the traditional pronunciation would be /ˈtʃɪtʃɛɹoʊ/ since Anglish spelling has /tʃ/ for soft c if I have it right.
And for Venus, the classical pronunciation would be something like /ˈweɪnəs/ (since classical Latin v = /w/), but the traditional pronunciation would be /ˈfiːnəs/; I assume that initial v would be read as /f/ since in Old English, later Latin borrowings with initial v were often spelled with f instead of consonantal u (implying that OE writers read initial Latin v as [f]), e.g., Latin versus (verse) > OE uers/fers. --AtterCleanser44 (talk) 00:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Oh that sounds fun! I wouldn't be apposed to that. Which would prefer to be the primary form? --CarlmanZ (talk) 00:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I would prefer the traditional pronunciation. Historically, the classical pronunciation was reconstructed relatively recently; before that, people would read Latin with their "regional" pronunciation, so the traditional pronunciation is the older and more widely used pronunciation for Latin words. So the primary form for Latin Caesar is Cheasar (since ae here historically corresponded to the sound value of ea in English), and something like Kiser would be the spelling for the classical pronunciation (since an English approximation of the sound value of classical ae is /aɪ/).--AtterCleanser44 (talk) 01:00, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Ooo, interesting. You have the go-ahead if you want to start on that tonight, I'll tweak the formatting afterwords. My only request is to not include the gendered endings when you put the words into English, I stated it in the page already that everything here won't use them (cuz that's not a thing in English) --CarlmanZ (talk) 01:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Good work! Don't forget all the Words and Names in the other sections too, though! --CarlmanZ (talk) 02:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)